AMA #2: Eric Cagle, Game Designer

Eric C

Testing, testing…1, 2, 3

Livio

hey Eric

Ian P

hello, thank you for coming!

LiamSorta

Hey Eric

Jeanenne Campbell

Hi, Eric!

Eric C

Ahoy, all!

Livio

1:00 now we can get started

Give us a little intro first Eric, and people can start asking questions

just a breif summary of who you are

Eric C

Sure thing. Hey everyone! I’m Eric Cagle. I’ve been a game industry pro since 1995, mostly in the tabletop space: board games, roleplaying games, card games, you name it. I got my big start at Wizards of the Coast and was there for 10 years (till 2005) and worked in customer service, R&D, and organized play

Since then, I went into the weird world of freelance/contracting, working in the video game space and still helping RPG (and other) companies with writing and game design

Games/Titles that I’ve worked on include: Magic: The Gathering, Dungeons & Dragons, Star Wars (several incarnations), d20 Modern, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, lots of smaller indy titles

I’ve been a game designer, writer, editor, editor-in-chief of a game magazine, narrative designer…

and a couple of oddball stints working in the SQL Databases of Xbox (?!) and now….teaching a bit on game design!

Also, I live in Seattle where, amazingly, it’s not raining at the moment 😃

How’s that?

Livio

it’s been unusually sunny over here this week

Eric C

It’s a trap

Livio

Eric do you have a favorite project that you’ve worked on?

Eric C

I’ve had a ton (and plenty more that I hated lol)

Probably one of my faves was working on Warhammer Fantasy RPG. It’s GLORIOUSLY DARK AND GRIM and a ton of fun to work inside

It’s a fun day where you get to use words like “blasphemous” and “squamous” without blinking

Jeanenne Campbell

What projects have you hated working on and why?

Eric C

Xbox SQL servers

Livio

lol did you hate the tech or the people

Eric C

Actually in the gaming space, there were very few that I HATED working on

LiamSorta

I’d love to know how the size of the team you were on (and the budget of the project) effected your creative control over a project, and whether the restrictions (if there were many) put you off larger scale projects

Eric C

usually it was more frustration on certain aspects. For example, I helped develop the first core book of Fantasy Flight’s latest iteration of Star Wars. The guys were great to work with, but the rules were still….doughy…when I was working on it. There was this expectation for me to come up with rules that were “missing” in there. But, when I did, I was told they were wrong without much in the way of insight.

LikeFrogs

Someone’s gotta ask, soooo: what’s your favorite trpg to play?

Eric C

@LiamSorta : Ironically in the RPG space, the larger the team, the worse off you’ll be. It’s such a small, intimate business AND everyone has a creative streak that tends to cross over into other people’s “vision”, so you have to be prepared to Kill Your Darlings if you want to succeed

@LikeFrogs: Dang, you HAD to ask

My top fave games: I love 5e D&D right now. It’s clean and elegent, both for the players and for the designers

Anyone heard of Ars Magica?

LikeFrogs

I’ve heard of it, but that’s all I can say…

LiamSorta

Yikes, so have there been many situations where you’ve had creative clashes with other people on a project then? How did you end up resolving them?

Eric C

RE: games: I’m also a HUGE fan of Feng Shui and also really like FFG’s Star Wars (and not just cuz I worked on it…)

@LiamSorta : It all depends on the team/company you’re working with. And the IP. In the case of things like Star Wars or Magic or even D&D, you’re constrained from the get-go by the overarching story anyway. You’re automatically prevented from going hog wild on creating something new…and there’s ALWAYS approval processes in place to check writers that go a bit…off

If you’re a writer or designer in the RPG space, unless you have your own company, you’re playing in someone else’s sandbox: their rules, their final say on what goes into a book/game

Jeanenne Campbell

From a game designing perspective, what is the process for making a game like?

LiamSorta

Hm yeah I can totally see that being the case, thanks

LikeFrogs

How were your assignments structured to fit within these precreated fictions?

Eric C

@Jeanenne Campbell : Well, what kinda game are we talking about first?

Jeanenne Campbell

Lets say a game like Star Wars, for example

Eric C

@Jeanenne Campbell : AH, well, first and foremost you need to look at the GAME first and the world/story second.

Why? Because if the game mechanics and flow suck, you’re not going to do the world any service lol

Livio

so you were usually working with a project that’s already been through enough work to have some idea of mechanics

LiamSorta

I’ve been running a gamedev community for about 9 months now, and as part of it, we regularly host game jams. One comment we’ve had frequently from designers is that they find it difficult to find teams due to everyone being in search of either programmers or artists – what advice would you give for a budding designer looking to get involved with game development that doesn’t have any technical background?

Eric C

But in that case, you have the advantage that the World/IP helps you dictate the STYLE of game design. For example, Star Wars is all about EPIC CINEMATIC!

the default setting isn’t realistic or gritty, so the mechanics need to reflect that. You have space wizards with laser swords! It’s more about capturing the feel of the movies IN the mechanics than accuracy

So in that case, you want to keep charts and “rules” to a minimum to allow play to move quickly and smoothly, with a lot of hand waving for the GM to fill in the blanks

@LiamSorta : Honestly, I’m often in the same boat lol

Ian P

You rate your vendor shmoozing as 5 yellow dots out of 8 dots on your website. How important do you think it is develop your shmoozing skills, and is there a part of your career where your shmoozing skills were more useful than others?

Jeanenne Campbell

I can see how that would make sense. Thank you!

Eric C

There’s a joke that is out there that designers are the “idea guys”. The truth is that NO ONE is the Idea Guy, but someone has to have the overall vision of a game to keep it coherent, or else the programmers will go left and the aritsts go right

A good designer will walk in with a ton of ideas and a willingness to toss out most of them and replace them with ideas that come from the rest of the team

“Be like water, Young Avatar”

@Ian P : RE: Schmoozing.

OMG it is probably the most important skill to have. PERIOD

LiamSorta

Brilliant answer, thanks!

Livio

what exactly do you mean by schmoozing

Eric C

Networking, relationship building, customer service, swag, trading gossip, being helpful/kind/courteous/generous with those in the industry. Treating your vendors and customers with respect. That sort of thing 😃

The age-old adage of “Don’t Be a Dick” works double or triple when you’re a designer, because your reputation is critical

If you’re a surly, but brilliant coder, you’ll find work SOMEWHERE. If you get a rep of being hard to work with as a designer, then….well, Dominos is hiring year round

If you’re a contractor/freelancer, especially when doing creative work you have to follow the rule of three:

1.) Always be wrapping up payment for a project you just finished

2.) Always be actively working ON a project

Livio

oh man nothing’s worse than a creative lead who’s hard to work with.

Eric C

3.) Always be landing the next three gigs after the one you’re currently on. Leave no gaps, if you can help it

Livio

that’s like one of the whole points of their job, to be easy to work with

Eric C

@Livio : DING! Correct

Livio

sorry I interrupted your rule of three

Eric C

@LiamSorta : I don’t know if I answered your question or not really :/

Ian P

Thanks for the answer! I have some experience shmoozing for film & video work that I’ve done and wanted to see if it was similar in games.

Eric C

Well, I have to say that I’ve made a career doing what I’m doing mainly because I know a TON of people in the space

Those contacts are critical and DON’T limit it to just games. Like you said prior, talk to people in adjacent industries: VR/AR, film and TV, graphic designers, audio people, convention folks, etc.

Jeanenne Campbell

Not really sure how related this is, but do you have any tips for networking if you’re an introvert?

Eric C

You’ll be amazed how having a diverse virtual Rolodex (is that a thing still?) will get you places. Also, see “Don’t be a dick rule” lol

Nes

Do you find that networking events and such are different for tabletop video game designers? I’ve heard from friends that there’s often vastly different circles that traditional games designers have to run in.

Eric C

@Jeanenne Campbell : Remember that you’re in an industry built by nerds, making things for geeks. We’re ALL introverts, so just be yourself 😃

@Nes : Well with video games, there’s a lot more talk about the technical side of things

LikeFrogs

What are good steps for breaking into industry before you have the connections?

Eric C

A lot of which just goes right over my head. Not that I’m stupid, but it’s just not my FIELD. However, I’m familiiar with everything their talking about. The trick is to insert yourself into the spaces by offering your own unique perspective on game play

Livio

people say introverts are easily tired out by social interaction. So I started seeing networking as a test of stamina. And I took rests when I needed them.

Eric C

Also, be honest about your skills. For example, i start every one of my teaching gigs (with Livio!) saying “I am NOT a coder. Just to be clear, I am a game designer that does not code.” LOL

I just work with and give instruction to the programmers to do their Black Magic and show me results. Same with artists. 😃

That said, if you’re a “game designer” do yourself a favor and learn the absolute basics of coding in the platform you want, say Unity (and some C#)

Or pick up a little Java or LUA

Nes

or Unreal and C++! Super important!

Eric C

@Nes : That’s right, pick your flavor!

Livio

Unreal’s got their Blueprints system, which doesn’t require typing

Eric C

@LikeFrogs : Regarding getting into the industry without the networking. START ONE!

Things like this and the IGDA in general are places to start

Go to Hack-a-thons, even if you’re just watching. Get to meet your fellow geeks

Livio

by “start one” you mean “start a project” right

Eric C

Well, yes lol

And also remember: you already have a network. Friends, family, colleagues, fellow students

start small, do fun weird little projects, build out from there

For example, when I lucked into my job at Wizards waaay back in the day, I got to know those people like they were my own family. then, over the years, people left and formed their own companies or worked for others. Keep those contacts strong and they will benefit you when you see a post on Facebook about a possible gig or cool project

LikeFrogs

Lots of good advice, thanks!

Eric C

To this day, I STILL tap that network that I started 10,000 years ago

Eric C

Also remember: Your hobby may be the thing that you end up doing as a career. that’s how I got started

But of course there WAS no degree in “Game Design” (Game Theory, yes…but that’s math :P)

So, if you like tinkering with VR then you might find in a year or two being the Lead Programmer on some awesomely weird gig

And they will pay you CASH MONEY for it. Whodathunk?

Hm, Discord may have borked on my end. Someone post a test message on here for me

Ian P

Hello, is your discord still broken?

Eric C

Seems to be working. Thanks, Super Glue!

Livio

sometimes it does stuff like that

Eric C

Just remember: it’s a free program lol

Like Skype

Ian P

So, you’ve worked on writing for both tabletop and video games, right? if so, what are the major similarities and differences for writing for both?

Eric C

Well, by writing are we talking narrative or game/mechanics design?

Ian P

I was thinking narrative, but if you feel you are more experienced with mechanics design, I would love to hear what you know more.

I mean, I’d love to hear both, but I don’t want to be here forever

Eric C

K, well Narrative then. In tabletop, your prose and narrative design often IS the game. Or at least, it’s almost the entirety of the world that you’re building.

In video game design, the story and dialogue is IMPORTANT, but not THE most important aspect

Lemme put it this way: in video games, you can make a game without words and make the best game ever. In tabletop, you can’t make a game without words at all lol

so those words had better MEAN something.

Do you guys know the term “crunch vs. fluff”?

Ian P

Not the crunch part.

Jeanenne Campbell

Not sure what the term means

Eric C

In Tabletop, crunch refers to the MECHANICS of the game and the way in which you describe them.

Livio

lol even I haven’t heard of that

LikeFrogs

you guys clearly need to play some more trpg’s!

Eric C

Fluff, however, is the story: the characters, dialogue, description of the world, etc.

So, a “Crunchy” bit for say the D&D Fireball would be: “The caster launches a ball of fire from her hand that deals 8d6 fire damage that explodes in a 10′ x 10′ area. Creatures in that area can make a Dexterity save at DC 16 for half damage”

Livio

that sounds like a useful term tbh

Eric C

Fluff would be a story or element describing the effect of the fireball, who created the spell in the first place, and how it is used by the War Mages of Narth in their quest of domination over the Lizardfolk of the Ebon Swamp.

😄

LikeFrogs

How do you balance between the two? And which usually comes first?

Eric C

Depends on the system

What I mean is that some games are more reliant on one over the other. Neither is correct or bad, just depends on the style of game

Nes

Magic needs to work on it’s crunch >.>

Eric C

For example, there’s a GREAT game called Feng Shui that mimics the over the top cinematic portrayal of action movies, kung fu movies and the like

Ian P

Do you know the best way to find people to play trpg’s with, since @LikeFrogs is attacking me for not knowing anyone to play with?

Eric C

the “rules” are super super light and easy, but the game is best because of how you describe what your character DOES

LOL, no geek shaming, ya’ll!

Xavier

Has anyone asked about your rock opera yet? What’s the story behind that? 🙂

Eric C

@Xavier 😄

Ooh, that’s a LONG story there

(And I just acted/performed in it. It was created by a brilliant, insane friend of mine)

Seven ritual plays created by Aleister Crowley set to prog rock lol

@Ian P : There’s a WEALTH of things you can do to find other tabletop gamers. First and foremost, head to your Friendly Local Game Store.

Livio

it’s almost time 🕖

Eric C

Any last questions? Realizing I didn’t talk tooooo much about video games 😉

Jeanenne Campbell

Not a question but I really enjoyed this AMA. Your answers were very informative 😁

Eric C

Aw, shucks! 😄

teazomboii

Makes me feel like luck and good attitude is as much as the key is as to a good demo real

Eric C

@teazomboii : Those are key, yes. Plus BE MERCENARY

Get paid what you’re worth. Don’t do anything for free unless it’s done strictly for fun or education. Don’t put up with abusive rules or expectations. Always be on the look out for something better, just in case

Be professional with the jobs/gigs you have

Loyalty (from both you AND the companies you work for) is EARNED, not demanded

Jeanenne Campbell

This is really good and sound advice

Livio

Thanks so much Eric!

Eric C

Hey, thank you guys! This was a lot of fun 😃

Now go out there and make (and play) some damn games!

Jeanenne Campbell

Thank you for coming! Really appreciated.

LikeFrogs

Thanks a bunch!

Ian P

Thanks a ton for coming in and talking to us Eric!

Eric C

I’ll arrange it with Livio to sit in on another few down the road. Then I can tell you war stories from the trenches of the RPG world. Heh.

Livio

Eric part 2

Eric C

“The Reckoning”

Livio

eric: the revenge

Eric C

Also, feel free to ping me on here via PM if you have any further questions

Ian P

Eric: the man behind the kilt

teazomboii

Nope!

Eric C

@Ian P : That’s better than “the man UNDER the kilt”. No one wants that, trust me.

teazomboii

Basically

Ian P

I did think it might be construed the wrong ay after sending it

Livio

whoa

Nes

woah yeah haha

teazomboii

The game industry didnt prepare me for this

Eric C

😇

Nes

Don’t make me call HR

Eric C

That’s why I work contract: I AM HR

Which means I have several workplace complaints against myself

Nes

Actually! What’s the one thing you want to improve the most, skill wise?

Eric C

@Nes : You’re gonna laugh, but I’m teaching myself Unity 😄

teazomboii

I think thats great :0

Nes

Nah man I totally get that. It’s tough to get started in anything. Unity is rough on it’s own.

You using it for prototyping game concepts?

Eric C

I just need to know enough to know how to talk semi-intelligently with the pro coders. And yes, prototyping

I do a lot of paper concepting already (and make board/card games), but sometimes it’s just better to do it in Engine

So, if you want to be a designer, learn to code, even just a lil bit

(I’m still talking, apparently)

LikeFrogs

Eric: part 1.5

teazomboii

The book was better

Eric C

This is known as the coda

The book was written by a hack. Trust me, I met him.

Anything else? Otherwise Friday Beers beckon 😃

Nes

I’m good. Enjoy your brewsss

teazomboii

Uhm how do we befriend pros for great advice like yourself

Eric C

@teazomboii : Go to cons, meetups, and events. Then buy them a Friday Beer and ask them a lot of questions about themselves. They Looooove to talk

Toad

Quick question, thought potentially complicated – do you have any advice for writing branching dialogue?

Eric C

@Toad : Ever heard of the app/site called “twine”?

Toad

I was interested in more the creative/artistic/writing side of it, actually

Eric C

Ah, well that aspect goes hand in hand

Meaning if you have a good tool (here’s the link for all: http://twinery.org) it’ll help you with your branching story without having to resort to lots of index cards and flowcharts

If you can “see” where your dialogue goes, then your lizard brain will help make the connections easier and locate dead spots, bad loops, or things that trail off without a purpose

Also, when you’re writing that sort of dialogue, you need to remember that you’re NOT WRITING YOUR STORY: you’re writing the GAME’S story.

Eric C

So you have to be able to pull back every once in awhile and look at the story and dialogue as a whole and make sure that you’re not just writing for an audience of one (aka you)

And for fantasy games, especially, make sure to limit “made up words” to a minimum. Same goes for making names – if it’s chock full of x’s, q’s, and random apostrophes, then interest drops considerably lol

Toad

Thanks for the tips! Really appreciate it

Eric C

😄

Just remember that your gaming audience (probably) speaks and understands 21st Century American English vernacular at a 4th-6th grade reading level. Keep your dialogue natural and conversational

(Note that there are always exceptions to said rules)

Ok, all. Thanks again! Cheers!

Jeanenne Campbell

Thanks and good night!

LadyCadashing

@Toad Twine is definitely good. I’ve also been recently playing around with Renpy for a project I’m doing, and it’s pretty fast to learn the very basics of it with, which makes testing slightly more complicated branching dialogue pretty easy (bonus over twine: Renpy keeps all your code/dialogue in one document so you’re not constantly flipping through passage nodes trying to find something you need to fix, you can just scroll down to it instead). Plus it’s a fully working VN engine with a lot of documentation/support, so once you figure it out it has a lot of potential for bigger projects than twine does. https://www.renpy.org/

esarkis

Sad I missed the AMA but happy to have the logs to peer through! I’d also like to sing the praises of Twine. I’ve tried writing IF in ChoiceScript and although it offers more freedom it is extremely helpful to have a visualized node-based map of your story in Twine as opposed to just loads of documents like in ChoiceScript. Been meaning to look into Renpy too.

Dawn

Same ^

Eric C

Totally intrigued by Renpy now. 😃

Kris Paz

I’m with them too. 🙁 I’ll peer through it if I can

Toad

I’ve heard of Renpy but I decided to try to make a VN in Unity because I’m trying to get familiar with C#, Unity’s custom libraries and the Unity engine in general. But I’ll definitely look into using something like Twine to model out my dialogue before implementation. Thanks!

esarkis

@Toad ever heard of Fungus? It’s a free Unity toolset for VNs iirc

Brandon Anderson

We are using it in a project I’m working on it. It seems pretty decent but I haven’t looked much into it. The dialogue flow charts are pretty nice looking though @esarkis

LiamSorta

Oh hi @Toad, you might be interested in this: http://www.liamsorta.co.uk/scriptable-object-based-dialogue-system/

It’s a flexible dialogue system that lets you store conversations in scriptable objects in lieu of large json files

Toad

Thanks for all your recommendations for dialogue implementation, but I’ve actually got my own custom-built system just about finished. I was more interested in the art of writing branching dialogue, but I appreciate all the suggestions! I’ll definitely have a look at those for future projects

LiamSorta

Oh interesting, mind if I ask what approach you went with? Always interesting to hear

Toad

I built something loosely based off of the Model-View-Controller software architecture pattern. Ive got an object-based dialogue system where I’ve got an abstract superclass of DialogueNodes, with child classes which are different types of nodes, like one that just displays the NPC’s text and then a “next” button, or one that displays the NPC’s text and prompts the user to select a response, for example. I load in these DialogueNodes into a Dictionary, and each DialogueNode has a field that stores the key (or array of keys, if it’s got multiple branches) that this node leads to. There’s a default “start” key that the controller automatically looks for, and from there it just goes down the dialogue map as the user chooses paths.

I’m not sure if I explained that clearly enough, or if its too confusing or jargon-heavy